Monday, February 21, 2011

Re: My Grandparents

Elder Abuse (Taken from Wikipedia)

  • Psychological/Emotional: e.g. shouting, swearing, frightening, or humiliating a person. A common theme is a perpetrator who identifies something that matters to an older person and then uses it to coerce an older person into a particular action. It may take verbal forms such as name-calling, ridiculing, constantly criticizing, accusations, blaming, and general disrespect, or non verbal forms such as ignoring, silence or shunning.

  • I have noticed from some of the comments on this blog, that people have made mention of my grandparents. (my dads' parents)

    I HAVE asked them if they would be willing to share their story on here, but I also need to realize that there is a LOT of hurt and pain that is still fresh in their minds.

    They have recently received some hurtful and libelous email letters from both my mother, father, and brother Michael... ALL of them claiming that, if my grandparents would only quit having ANYTHING to do with me, then repent for keeping in contact with various other former members of the church as well, then all would be as it was before and they could resume the family relationship.

    I and a few others have copies of these emails.

    I only hope and PRAY, that my children do not marry someone or become like this towards myself or my husband. To say and do such things that DIRECTLY contradict the Scriptures is hard to imagine.

    On Christmas Eve of 1999, my grandparents came out to Steinbach and took me out for lunch.
    I had been working at a dairy farm at the time and had received a bonus, after I had purchased something for myself, I chose to buy EVERYONE in my family a Christmas present.
    After our lunch, when my grandparents dropped me off at my house, they told me that they would be going to my parents' home for supper that night.
    I asked them if they would be willing to take all the gifts I had purchased to my family and they were MORE than happy to do so.

    After they took the gifts to my parents' house, things completely blew up in their faces. My parents were SO ANGRY that they would even DARE to come see me. ( I had been 'church disciplined')
    I cannot speak for them as to what was said, but they left Canada shortly thereafter.

    If you don't believe me....Ask them!

    ** Feel free to look us up on Facebook **


    1. I understand that you may have originally started this blog to end the lies about yourself but it seems clear from the comments that many things about the church have been and need to be brought to light. I hope your grand parents will consider sharing their story on here. And I hope to read more of your continuing story from when you left home.

    2. Ok laura i dont understand what you are trying to do. Do you not see that what your doing is not helping you at all!!

    3. Anonymous #2: Rule of thumb: Never tell someone else what does and doesn't help them, because even if you are close to them or the situation (or have been in a similar situation), you'll never be them.

      Besides that, exposing lies and deceit ALWAYS helps.


      I bought gifts for each of my siblings and my parents for Christmas, but haven't sent them. I don't know if they will ever get sent or what. My dad would probably make everyone throw everything away.

    4. Keep telling the truth. I'm praying for your grandparents to have the courage to speak up as well. In Christ,


    5. It's sad when someone who practically expects to be worshiped by their children doesn't even have the decency to honor their own parents.

    6. To anonymous,who doesn,t understand what Laura is GOING to do ,let me tell you.Slowly one by one the Grandparents,former deacons all those involved will be sharing what they know about Lauras story,the TRUTH will come out and all those involved will be set free,for that is what the TRUTH does.Everything hidden will be revealed,is that not what we should all want to happen?

    7. Anonymous@2:35 That's the way it dad insisted I do everything he said or I wasn't honoring/loving him or God...but then he didn't do what his parents said. I wrote a post pointing out some of the hypocrisies like that.

    8. Lets get every one together who has ever failed in life, turned out miserable and get them to tell us a version that treats them like comfort food... oh well, if thats all you got than play your cards.

    9. WARNING,To all the Mennonites following Lauras story,that are rubbing their hands together with glee,waiting for the Baptist Church to collapse,sorry it won,t, nor do I think it should.This is a chance for abusive leadership to repent,get right with God while they still have a chance.I believe that there is a place for the Baptist Church and with new leadership and a review of some of its teaching it could be a very effective tool for God to use.We have to remember that the majority of the people attending the PVBC have come out of the Mennonite Church where for the most part they were also abused and spiritually malnourished.This is also a wake up call for Mennonite leadership to repent .Remember the Church of Jesus Christ is not made up of Baptists,Mennonites or any other denomination,Christs church is made up of those people that have acknowledged JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOR.There is a place for the different denominations,not one is the whole body of Christ,all are parts,so put your denominational distinctives in your back pocket,they aren,t important.Instead of your bully pulpits,ask God to fill your hearts with love and compassion for his people and you will be amazed how he will bless.

    10. I agree Anon 5:42.

      I am a 'Mennonite' and desire for their to be harmony between the Baptist church and the rest of the community. I don't think the church itself is a bad thing and believe it could be a very good thing. The problem is the leadership, though I have never met them or come in contact with them it is clear from the comment section of this blog that there is a problem with the leadership. And most leaders, as most parents, seem to think that if a problem like this arises it's time to buckle up and get tough. It's not. It's actually time to let the rains loose a little bit and allow others in the church a say... change things up and grow spiritually.

    11. The Amen and amen is in response to Anonymous at 5:42 a.m. thx.

    12. Ok you all are SO SICK !!!! God will judge this matter i dont want to be around when he is

    13. USA International Therapy COFebruary 22, 2011 at 12:05 PM

      Please rear with respect to my opion.

      Narcissistic personality disorder
      Last reviewed: November 14, 2010.

      U.S. National Library of Medicine
      National Institutes of Health
      Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which people have an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with themselves.

      Causes, incidence, and risk factors

      The causes of this disorder are unknown. An overly sensitive personality and parenting problems may affect the development of this disorder.


      A person with narcissistic personality disorder may:

      React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
      Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
      Have excessive feelings of self-importance
      Exaggerate achievements and talents
      Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
      Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
      Need constant attention and admiration
      Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy
      Have obsessive self-interest
      Pursue mainly selfish goals
      Signs and tests

      Like other personality disorders, narcissistic personality disorder is diagnosed based on a psychological evaluation and the history and severity of the symptoms.


      Psychotherapy (for example, talk therapy) may help the affected person relate to other people in a more positive and compassionate way.

      Expectations (prognosis)

      The outcome depends on the severity of the disorder.


      Alcohol or other drug dependence
      Relationship, work, and family problems

    14. Attention: February 22, 2011 6:48 AM

      "Anonymous said...
      I agree Anon 5:42.

      I am a 'Mennonite' and desire for their to be harmony between the Baptist church and the rest of the community. I don't think the church itself is a bad thing and believe it could be a very good thing. The problem is the leadership, though I have never met them or come in contact with them it is clear from the comment section of this blog that there is a problem with the leadership. And most leaders, as most parents, seem to think that if a problem like this arises it's time to buckle up and get tough. It's not. It's actually time to let the rains loose a little bit and allow others in the church a say... change things up and grow spiritually.
      February 22, 2011 6:48 AM"

      I have never met you personally nor have I even seen you in public. But I have read a lot about you... and judging by that then your character is suspect and you maybe need to get some new conduct.... That sure makes for a winning argument doesn't it?.... just sayin

    15. Hello, this is Canada.... get the proper exchange rate and then we can talk

    16. Attention USA International Therapy CO said...

      "Please rear with respect to my opion."
      Warning, this type of grammatical error is just cause for someone on here to say mean things such as "please do not post if you do not hold a valid grade 5 comprehension level and are able to make a simple sentence using big words"

      but it is ok because we all knnow what you meent. P.s, was this for Laura?

    17. TO ALL DENOMINATIONS To those leaders,that have allowed and encouraged their followers to worship them,repent or your following will be taken from you. Deacons,if you have been unwittingly recruited as yes men,blindly following leadership,repent,step down so that your fellowship with God might be restored. To those parents,whose families have been torn apart because you revered man not God, ask God and your childrens forgiveness,that your children may be restored to you.Take back the years that the locusts have eaten.To the children that have dishonoured God and their parents,true peace will only come after you repent. It is time for all of us to humble ourselves before God that he might heal us,that there might be the possibility of revival in southern Manitoba.

    18. blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my name sake.
      Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:11,12

      these verses are for pastor Sullivant.

      Keep serving the Lord no matter what the Satan sends your way. The LORD has done a great work through you.

    19. Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

      Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

      Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
      Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

      Jesus was Baptized by a Baptist thus making him a Baptist and note carefully what the Scriptures saith: "in whom I am well pleased."

    20. Responding to Anon 5:25p

      There in lays the problem.. when you believe that John the Baptist is above Jesus Christ. Since you believe that Jesus became a 'Baptist' simply because he went to John to be baptized why didn't He then also become John's disciple? He didn't. And you believe that God was pleased with Jesus because (in your opinion) He became a 'baptist'?

      God made John, God prepared John to preach to the people.. not to become Baptists, rather to receive Christ!

      I would love to understand how you twist it so badly and make hundreds of people believe it.

    21. 1. Hmm. For me a couple of things are happening in this blog. Both of the of value. First of all for those that are trying to convince the people at PVBC that the Emperor has no clothes, that is not likely to happen. If you are looking for accountability good luck to you. The King of Kings called the Chief Priest to accountability as did a fellow called Menno Simons many years later. Both of them likely knew what the end result of there action would be, but they needed to do so anyway. Conservative churches have no checks and balances in place to prevent the abuse of absolute power. Thats what makes the headmaster so all powerful. He recreates in himself the role of Chief Priest. Through him all must and will come to understanding. Its as faliable a system today as it was in the past.

      2. Another comment that is coming through is "Laura this is not helping". I as one who has and is still walking in those very same shoes would dearly beg to differ. It has got to be tremendously cathartic to be able to finally give voice to something that happened so many years ago. Getting it off your chest sort of thing. We were told by the Chief Priest to leave a very conservative Mennonite Church. We were born, raised, baptized, married spent the better part of 50 years there. And then it was over. We were asked to leave and so we did. What an incredibly lonely time for us. We had no one to talk to, no one asked us what happened, no one wanted to know. Our friends averted there eyes when we met them in town. It would have been nice to have someone to lean on, but opportunity wasn't given. So to those that are saying "this is not helping", I would say "you may not have walked in her shoes". For I am certain it has brought Laura a measure of relief. She is not alone out there.



    24. just a reminder for the person who promised me proof 2 weeks ago im still waiting. my email is still and my ph# is still 362-2907

    25. to: Anonymous said...
      Responding to Anon 5:25p

      I did not wright the Bible... deal with it!

    26. Thank you so much for posting this blog - I'm glad you're not afraid to share your story!

    27. By the way, Revival will come to southern Manitoba when sheep begin to act like sheep. Sheep are not intelligent by nature. There has been enough insubordination. It seems like anyone who didn't get a handshake when you walked in the door or they did not pick your Grandma Lucy's favorite hymn.... or maybe you did not get a pat on the back when you picked up that gum wrapper that you were waiting to pick up till someone was watching, is willing to tell their horror tale to anyone who is "HURT". Boo Hoo. Look at this post, now look at yours... reliaze you should be out trying to serve the LORD right now.

      2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    28. Anon @ 7:28 PM - HUH? WOW.

    29. "Sheep are not intelligent by nature."

      Wow, obviously written by a sheep. I can't think of a bigger insult than to be called a sheep. The thing about sheep is they don't even know they're getting fleeced when the wool is pulled over their eyes.

    30. @ Anonymous-February 22, 2011 7:17 PM
      Clearly you didn't write the Bible. You don't know the difference between write and right. And don't get me started on rite.

    31. Why is it that we can't get a straight answer? (I did not wright the Bible... deal with it!
      February 22, 2011 7:17 PM)

      You didn't answer my questions you simply stated that the Bible is truth. I read the same Bible you read but I never perceived that Jesus became a 'baptist' because he was baptized by John. Why then do you perceive that?

    32. To: Anonymous who's not so intelligent by nature.

      Ah yes, and when the shepherd is corrupt the sheep will follow. Cause heaven forbid you should ever ask questions.

      You don't even know what you're saying. And, you'll never know until you are thrown in the same pit filled with the same black paint the rest of us have been painted with by the same corrupt shepherd.

      Don't you think a real man of God would try and help his sheep out of that pit rather than pour more paint on them to keep them silent as to hide his own sins?

      Matt 18:12

      I may be a BLACK sheep in your eyes, but one day God will remove this stain and reveal all truth.

    33. bah bah have you any wool?

    34. maybe bah bah has too much bah humbug and needs some detergent!!!! SONLIGHT perhaps?

      Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    35. Laura,

      Where in the Bible does it ever tell us that we are to try to force a Pastor out of the ministry, or that we should rebel against authority and God will bless you for it.

      I don't see the verse that says tell the world your story so that you can feel better about the choices you made.

      Laura your mission with this blog is not to bring healing or restoration, but revenge against your father.

      You used to be close to me, but you chose to leave. then you told the (******) that I would back up your story of "abuse".

      I grew up in the same house you did and I wish that Mom and Dad would have been more strict with me on many things.

      I wish that You, Jason and your three girls could be united with me and my family. you are separating us further apart and the hurt that you are causing is much deeper then just getting back at dad for not letting you get your way.

      PLEASE, stop this blog from ruining your life and hindering the healing that could take place.

      I will always love you and your family


    36. Amen to that Mark!

    37. To Mark,maybe you should ask your Daddy where in scripture it mentions that we should rebell against authority.His church is largely comprised of people that rebelled against authority and he welcomed them with open arms ask him for chapter and verse.Even if Laura did return as you say into the family,it wouldn,t make any difference,there are to many other people that your father has ridden rough shod over.Be patient the light will go on for you too.

    38. Laura,
      It is so upsetting that your brothers cannot contact you directly. I find it so sad that they can only communicate with you through your blog.
      Maybe this blog is to help you have dialogue with your brothers that post on here. They are obviously following it closely.
      If your father is anything like people are describing him in the comments area, then I`m guessing that they would not comment on this blog without direction and permission from your father.
      You are in my prayers.

    39. What I find interesting is the hypocrisy.

      The PVBC (according to those commenting) teaches that you should yield to authority, they all expect Laura to turn back to her parents and beg for forgiveness for her 'sins'.

      On the other hand the PVBC also teach to be joyful when you leave home, brother, sister, mother, father, wife, or children, with persecution for the gospel's sake (to join their church) because they teach separation (separating oneself from the world - which by definition is the rest of us because we are not in their church).

      So if they apply the first to Laura (expecting her to repent and turn back to authority) then why don't they apply the second to her also?

      Perhaps the Lord is joyful that she has left home, brother, sister, mother, father, with persecution for HIS sake!

    40. Anonymous February 23, 6:34 AM

      God never tells us to rebel, so that his grace can abound.

      Laura needs to make things right for the things she did against the authoity she had at the time.(her parents)

      now that she is married she does not have to obey her parents commands. but she does need to make thigs right for time she was under her parents authority,

    41. I,m thinking that as Old Mike looks at his sinking ship,he wishes he could morph into a different human being,set up another "church" across the street from pvbc and welcome all the disgruntled people in from pvbc.

    42. PLEASE, stop this blog from ruining your life and hindering the healing that could take place.

      Like I said to someone else...truth should always be brought to the light, and if it doesn't happen by Laura, it will by someone else. Truth can't be kept quiet forever, and hushing the truth is enabling the abusers.

    43. A question for Pastor Mike or one of his adherents who has authority to speak:

      Is it true that you believe and teach that everyone outside of your church is “of the world,” and that only PVBC adherents are going to heaven? Do you also include members from other like-minded denominations who will be going to heaven? Does the type of baptism (sprinkling or immersion) qualify or disqualify a Christian from going to heaven?

    44. I wonder how Mike feels having his dirty laundry out for everybody to see. Now he knows how everybody that he slandered from his pulpit feels. There are some things that everybody does not need to know. Right Mike. Since when is a persons private matters the business of a church? That is the strangest form of counselling that I have ever heard of. Looks good on you Mike! Like they say "What goes around comes around"

    45. Anonymous,February 23, 2011 9:50 AM

      there has never been a time in the history of the church that the PVBC or Pastor Sullivant have ever said that you must go to the church in order to go to heaven.

      there are many people that attend PVBC that have never been immesed, (baptism is a requirement for church membership) that is what is preached at the PVBC. Baptism has never been a qualification for salvation.

      I have attended the PVBC from day one, graduated From the CBBC amd am a member.

      All those that repent of their sin, ask Christ to save them will go to heaven.

      that is what the church believes and that is what the Pastor believes.

      check out the Church's statement of faith:

    46. So everyone one that is abused by authority (whether it be physical, mental or spiritual) should stay UNDER that authority and obey? (this authority that I'm talking about is pastor over congregation, not father over daughter, she was legally & spiritually an adult who did not take the ADVICE of a parent).

      WHERE in the bible does it encourage enabling corruptness?

      Mike is not BIBLICALLY qualified to pastor any church, his home life is a mess, he's not blameless in the community, he's quick to anger, should I not mention his love of money that 2 deacons witnessed? (not that they're the only witnesses) He's giving a horrible reputation to the cause of Christ and the only thing that's keeping him in the sinful situation are his enablers & his pride.


    47. Everyone knows how frustrating it can be when a parent is trying to raise a child, or deal with a family issue and grandparents stick their noses in what is past their business.
      I love the noble cause slant. You former members of pvbc and critics crack me up. I don't even go to church and I mock in your genereal direction. This PMS sounds like a smart guy. Hats off to him for putting up with you as long as he did.
      Think I'll check out the church.

    48. I think someone here stated that pvbc is full of people that have rebelled. Amen, God forgives and so does my Pastor. It's not just rebellion against parents that has brougt this on Laura, it is her full attack on a church.
      Church discipline is Biblical although not widely accepted in this day and age of humanism and apostasy.
      God is love, and He is holy and Just, AMEN. Something to think about before launching an attack on a church or preacher.
      There is freedom of religion and it is NOT our job to spend a life collecting 'stories' of accusations. That is bitter and childish.
      Air as well then, all the parts of your own lives you leave out in order to make Pastor Sullivant look bad.

    49. You have no idea how bad "grandparent" issues can be! let me tell ya. "Grand"--not so much, "parent"--meet certain criteria but fail miserably in others. Oh well, what can you do?

    50. Attn: Jason HiebertFebruary 23, 2011 at 6:46 PM

      I think we're all disappointed that you have yet to receive your proof. While we wait, would you care to share what your mom and sister said when you asked them about the allegations?

    51. sure i can share they are both interested as they have no relection of any such meeting or being forbidden to talk to certain individuals.

    52. so far this PROOF is just a lie.

      sad, so sad.

      All the people that have something against the Baptist Church are just angry that the pastor didn't cave in to their "scent free" demands.

      I think some people need to get over themselves.

    53. Oh, wait
      the Church bought a $700.00 air purifier so that one of the now "Laura supporters" could come to church.

    54. Another "Debtor"February 23, 2011 at 10:09 PM

      @Anonymous February 23, 2011 7:15 PM
      You've learned well, Grasshopper. PMS doesn't give gifts without strings attached, he's only ever given out loans, which he's quick to call in as soon as someone sees through him and wants to leave. There's no such thing as charity with that man, he sees any help the church has given you as the price of your soul.

    55. Dear Mr. or Ms. Anonymous at 7:15,

      My name is Melanie.

      You certainly are a coward. You will not say my name, but nearly everyone who follows this blog knows exactly about whom you are writing when you discuss scent-free issues.

      I will publicly say that I did not ask for an air purifier. It was suggested and I agreed, because a scent-free policy seemed too demanding for church members and compliance to such a policy was expected to be nil.

      Have you ever taken the time or CARED enough to call me and ask what it's like to spend a day in my shoes? Maybe next time you are sick or hurt, someone should come to you and say "Get over yourself." You really have no idea what you're talking about. UNTIL you care enough to ASK ME, you can keep your judgemental, cowardly, and ignorant opinions to yourself. And yes, if I were speaking to you personally, I would say the exact thing I have typed in this little comment box.

      Sir/ma'am, you are NO CREDIT to the name CHRISTIAN.

    56. All will be revealed in due time. you will probably be surprised that a lot of reasons for leaving has NOTHING to do with Laura, many of us came to know Mike's true personality on our own.

      Many of us could care less that the church is a cult and leave people to make their own decisions based on their own experience. But it wont stop messing with people's families!

      "Our animal instinct is to savage any threat to our loved ones" If the control, manipulation and abuse would just STOP, so much of this hostility could be avoided.

    57. ATTENTION: ANONYMOUS February 23, 2011 8:25 PM

      How can you "savage" something? I have heard of "salvaging" something, or maybe "sabotaging" something, but savaging something? Maybe put away your animal instinct dialect thesaurus and go to school. Btw, whats with the Quotation marks? Were you quoting yourself?

      You sound scorned... did your family leave? Why?
      If your story checks out I'll help you savage some fools.

    58. I love the fact that humans are the some as animals that means that God doesn't matter nor does it matter how we live.

      So then What is the point of all this?

      Definitely not to please God.

    59. Macho Man, It was used as a verb in that sentence. A direct quote from a TV show.

      My family is broken because of PVBC, I want that fixed, if going public with our story helps, then so be it.

    60. Melanie,

      Your so intent on proving that people at the PVBC don't care about you. why didn't you become the person that helped other care, instead of going around trying to dig up dirt on the pastor of your church.

      We should all try to help other become more like Christ rather then Satan(the accuser of the brethren).

    61. Anonymous February 23, 2011 9:38 PM

      I see that Hollywood's doctrine now take the place of BIBLE Doctrine in your life.

    62. The PVBC is having a Missions Conference Thursday, Friday and Sunday.

      Go and see.

    63. is that not a true statement? would we not protect our family/children at all cost? its not a question of doctrine but of our humanity.

    64. Melanie,
      Have you ever spent a moment in Pastor Sullivants shoes? Come on! And why is it everywhere I go in town people tell others they should go to your house for 'coffee' and a 'truth session'? Very Christian indeed. Take your own advice maybe, and keep your opinions to yourself.
      I don't think God called you to this task of being a busybody and seeking destruction of a church.
      You are worth a purifyer and more to pastor, so what strings?
      Move on and be happy, thats your individual sole liberty and everyone elses. If the 550 people left are fine, good for them they don't need you to save them from anything. Let them have fun in their blinded misery.
      Your God isnt very big, you gotta do all the setting up and taking down for Him. I tend to believe His thoughts and ways are higher than mine.
      I like you alot, but this is disappointing.
      Praying for you.

    65. Just popping in to check the score.

      Funny, I recall a second lady who attended the church and probably still does who also had scent-issues, so Mel isn't the only one. And as for the $700.00, it's pocket change. If Mel isn't there anymore to benefit from it, they can still run it 24/7 to cleanse the air from the stench of hypocrisy.

    66. They only problem there is with any kind of
      "scent-issue" is that you have been scent by God to reach others for Christ. And scents you don't go out and witness, and your little lavender scented guilt thingy inside smells more like weeds right now(or conscience is seared), your only recourse is to lash out at those who are busy serving and are successful at it. I am glad that I am not your lost relative.

      just me two scents

    67. The wicked always try to destroy the righteous.

      Psalms 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

      Psalms 37:32 the wicked watcheth the righteous, and seek to slay him.

    68. Anon Feb 24 10:19am.

      It would be nice if you shared your name because you are incredibly cruel. Here you preach that the res of us non Baptists are lost sheep and yet.. do you hear yourself. How can you call yourself saved and be so cruel?

      I have not nor will I judge the salvation of a Baptist member, nor will I speak out with such cruelty as you are towards anyone.

    69. Anon Feb 24 10:36

      what are you trying to say? are you reading the same blog?

    70. "Successful at serving"???? Wow, someone is sure full of themselves. Talk about warped. Laura's story aside it's disturbing, but also good to reveal the way certain people that attend a certain place think. So basically if you're not wearing a suit and tie and going on visitation you're not a witness? I'd like some real answers to that question. Well, not real answers, but your answers.

    71. This is anon 10:36 speaking... I wasn't speaking for everyone.. only myself. I have not, nor will I treat anyone as cruelly as you are speaking of the scent sensitive person.

    72. So here we see that it's ok to try to destroy a church but it's not ok to name the people that are trying to destroy it.

    73. You've Been Lawyered!February 24, 2011 at 2:19 PM

      Things you may not know. Just ask your self, how much goes on behind closed doors that the congregation has absolutely no clue about? THE CHURCH WAS BEING SUED!

    74. Pride.. that seems to be a problem many if not most of the members of the Pembina Valley Baptist Church deal with.

      I personally believe most, if not all of what you believe. I believe in Immersion, because we should follow the example of Christ and He was immersed. I believe in Grace. I believe in separating oneself from the world (that is, to not act as the world acts but to shine worth with the Light of Christ). Etc,

      But.. the reason I'm not a Baptist, and my family, is because of the pride you show forth. We have had friends become Baptists and then all of a sudden they can't enjoy an evening of coffee and fellowship with us anymore. We have had family members become Baptists and then they walk past us like we have the plaque.

      Somehow they are now better than us. As though they now have something that we don't have and could never attain.

      What do you have that I don't have?

    75. john and heather dyckFebruary 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM


    76. so a disgruntled person trying to sue a organization means the organization is bad?

      Lame so lame

    77. You've Been Lawyered,

      Give your head a shake.

      The first link has nothing to do with the PVBC,
      and the second takes a sorry excuse of a person to sue a church for their kid sliding down a railing and falling.

    78. You've Been Lawyered!February 24, 2011 at 4:52 PM

      like with most things, its not the act itself but the cover up.

    79. If you check the Manitoba Court archives you might be surprised that Glory Bound Mike was also sued for failure to pay three years rent in Winkler.

    80. Tabitha Bartz FriesenFebruary 24, 2011 at 5:26 PM

      On the child that fell, (he is my brother). The suit was against the insurance company to recover damages to a nine-year-old child who was severely brain injured as a result of the fall. If you are ever in a car accident, the same would go. The insurance company is the one responsible for paying damages. You should talk to all the people involved before commenting on something you know nothing about.

    81. Tabitha Bartz FriesenFebruary 24, 2011 at 5:33 PM

      To clarify my last post. My dad did have to file a countersuit against Mike Sullivant, after to sued my father in relation to the suit against the insurance company. Mike Sullivant filed first. I have always been disgusted by the actions of this "Christian".

    82. I’d like to echo Feb. 24, 12:26.
      We’ve had identical experiences with each of our friends and family members who turned Baptist. Practically overnight they acted as though they were light years more spiritual than us. Our children were not good enough for their children to play with anymore. It seemed as if we would contaminate them, as if we were victims of some crime. This wasn’t at all verbal like it is on this blog, but their mannerisms toward us were of estrangement, so it became impossible to get together anymore. No matter how accommodating and gracious we tried to be, e.g. organizing family gatherings around their church attendance, we continued to be treated as outsiders.

      I’ve always felt this was the fault of the pastor/leader of the church, who taught his members that they were the only saved ones, and that they should spend as little time as possible with people outside their “holiest church on the face of the earth.” That is why I earlier asked the question whether the PVBC thinks they are the only ones going to heaven.

      By the way, we have friends from various churches in the Winkler area and these better-than-thou attitudes have never surfaced in any of them.

      Is this prideful (?) attitude not something the pastor would preach against? God blesses us with families and friends, and I want to believe that Mr. Sullivant would believe this as well, and not expect him and his agenda to come above family and friends in his members’ lives.

    83. 4:31 correction:
      I meant to say "perpetrators of some crime," instead of "victims." On the other hand, I have often battled feeling like a "victim" because of how I've been ostracised. Is that the kind of love that we are to have to one another?

    84. This is just ridiculous. I've never seen such non-sense. This blog is only to destroy the character of someone and only show one side. People need to mature and move on. If something illegal was done to you then you need to take it up in the courts. If you're just agonizing over the fact that the church/pastor doesn't do it they way you want/think it should be done then go start your own church and do it the "right" way. If you don't like how the Baptist church is so conservative, go somewhere more liberal. I like Tom Friesen's comment a post or so back. Stop whining and crying over how the church/pastor has hurt you. Whine whine whine. I didn't try to take down the corporate company and bosses that "fired" me because I ran my fingers through my hair in a meeting. Boo hoo...I moved on with my life without looking for revenge and trying to get people on the "let's get them" band wagon.

      On another note, why is it ok for Laura to tell the pain that has occured in her life and yet it not's ok for her siblings to tell the pain that her behavior caused them? Why is her pain the truth and their pain is only considered a cover-up for their "bad" dad? Why didn't her brother contact her personally? Why didn't she contact her brother personally? She caused her siblings pain from what they are saying. It's a two way street people.

    85. Anon..4:31pm.

      I don't know (yet) if the pride is taught by the Pastor but he strongly teaches separation.. you can listen to their sermons online.

    86. When a pastors actions/words directly contradict the bible, what are fellow Christians to do? shut up and quietly leave? I KNOW that is not what should to be done.

      Separation from the world is biblical, separation from fellow Christians/family members NOT SO MUCH!

    87. MISSIONS CONFERENCE??? Ha! You mean, "Give me all your money and shut up about it or God won't bless you Conference."

      If there is anyone who should be labelled an extortionist it's Sullivant.

      And the thing about being sued? No, someone suing the church does not make the church bad, but the church didn't know they were being sued. But, don't you think as tithing members the people were entitled to know?

      That's where the rub comes! Why would he keep that a secret from everyone if he's such an "honest" "godly" man.

    88. Tabitha,
      Yes, talk to all the people involved, don't just take Daddy's word. Good advice.
      You wanna talk control. Here is a girl who's daddy demands life insurance on his daughters to give her in marriage and says you can't break up with her if your engaged to her. I've heard all about it straight from their mouths.
      Sorry, but I have lived with Bartz doctrines in Barrie Ontario and it's a joke. Talk about filthy lucre, and I have the proof. No wonder their own daughter ended up in a detention home.
      There's more if you want proof. You wanna play the game? You believe in airing the dirty laundry? Sure, we'll take turns manifesting family info. REAL CUTE.
      Nice site. You brought it on yourselves folks...nothing like an open forum. Just keep talking and it WILL ALL COME OUT!
      Amen, I'm all for it.
      Hang in there pvbc. You folks are good folks, and don't let the devils attacks discourage you.

    89. Put youself out of your misery... go get the audit books, see the salary and the missions money gone out and relax yourself.

    90. In Your Face,
      Were you there tonight? How do you know such "facts"?

    91. oh come on, didn't you read it right...the church wasn't being sued, it was the insurance company! And the Psstor sued BARTZ...LOL. What's the big deal informing the whole church anyway, it's just the insurance company settling a recovery of funds for injury. No big deal. No cover up. No church money lost. Bartz gets money and not Pastor Sullivant so you all are happy right? Or still not?

    92. i knew about it.

      =church member

    93. Anonymous@6:16:

      This is just ridiculous. I've never seen such non-sense.

      Unfortunately, you're adding to it.

      This blog is only to destroy the character of someone and only show one side.

      It's not to show "one side", it's Laura's niche in the world to say whatever the hell she wants to. Of course it's going to be her side of anything she writes! But if you're only going from what everyone says about her wherever she came from, you're going to get the other one side, and it sounds like you like that one better. Besides, it's called free speech, and it's what allowed you to disagree with her anyway.

      People need to mature and move on.

      Funny, this is always said to anyone who is hurt by anything, that they need to suck it up and move on. Guess what, you don't just "mature and move on" from something that was a huge part of your life for a long time. I know. I'm trying to get over the abuse that has happened over the last 23 years of my life. It's absolutely impossible to just "mature and move on". There's a crapload of stuff to work through.

    94. How do you move on when issues are unresolved?

      Much of the abuse is not "in the past" its ongoing, some of us may be free from it but if our family members aren't?

      Until everyone you love is free from that abuse you can never truly "move on"

    95. So we should all run an ad in the free press if someone sues our insurance company.

    96. It's very possible to mature and move on from abuse. God gives grace to forgive and live in victory. HOWEVER, I have yet to read about 'abuse' on this site. I have dealt with many many truly abused people and maybe you all should spend some time with them too.

    97. Any logical and person of sound mind would realize that a Bartz married someone with family that go to church at pvbc. Why would their kind pastor want to embarrass them by telling the church family that their relatives were suing the church's insurance company for damage. Maybe he also was being kind to the Bartz family by not broadcasting their situation, unlike those bitter people on this site. Hmmm.
      By the way, when you get money from auto insurance for an accident it's because they deemed it definately an injury based on that accident, no need to sue unless the 'damages' are NOT covered becuase it's in question and not considered an injury related to your accident. If you feel you have an injury that the auto company disagrees with you on, then you would have to file suit with your auto company as well, or against the other driver etc.
      In my deductions legally there was no foul or harm considered to be fact here and it had to be proved before the insurance company would want to cover the claimed injury. The church insurance company would probably counter with the fact that they also felt that the 'injuries' were not related to their facilities.
      Reading the files posted on the web, you can read that clearly, and that it was in court for many years because simply the insurance company was not convinced of the claim. No such Pastor Sullivant first filed against a Bartz family.
      The court dockets reveal other things as well. Read them if you're nosy.

    98. Tabitha Bartz FriesenFebruary 25, 2011 at 5:16 AM

      To anonymous 8:31.

      I would really like a name. I have no idea who you are. I also know you do not know my family. I was strongly encouraged to make sure I knew Tim before I married him. I also returned his ring one month before we were married. He was never instructed that he couldn't break up with me once we were engaged. The life insurance thing. Definitely the wishes of a godly man. My father requested of us that while we have children in the home that we carry life insurance (no set amount - we have determined that ourselves) so that if anything every were to happen to Tim I could stay home and raise the children not have to go immediately to seek employment. I was also to have life insurance on me, so that Tim is covered in cause something happened to me. ie he could hire a nanny/housekeeper

      As to my sister Abigail, she has grown into a woman who is doing her best to serve God. She is actively involved in a church in the area in which she lives and has been in that church and active in that church for about three years. My parents were not comfortable with the actions of the school and removed her without the blessing of the school or her sponsor in the program there. The home she was sent to on recommendation of Leroy Pennell is under investigation of extreme abuse right now. I am extremely proud of Abigail that she has continued to seek God even after a very difficult time in a "Godly" institution.

      I live in the area I grew up in. Every time I meet someone from the church I grew up in, they ask after my dad with respect and caring. I obivously have not talked to you as you do not share that feeling.

      We do not attend an independent/fundamental church which unfortunately as lead some old friends I knew growing up to comment "I was told you don't go to church anymore." That is very sad as indy/fundy churches are not the only churches out there, nor are they the only ones who see and feel God's hand on their ministries.

      Remember being "saved" does not make you a "Christian." A word that means little Christ/Christ-like. I tell my children often that going to church does not make them a Christian, only their relationshiop with Christ can do that.

      I do like the Bartz' doctrine part. My dad was never in charge of the church, all doctrine preached/enforced were Leroy Pennell's and my dad left when he did not feel he could enforce the "doctrine" with a clear conscience. "Filthy lucre" means money and my family live below the poverty line so I'm not sure where that comes from.

      I have posted my name on my posts. I would urge you to do the same. Some of your facts are false (twisted to make them look bad or only partial truths or not true at all).

    99. Anon @ February 24, 2011 8:31 PM

      You obviously don't even know what you are talking about. I would suggest quitting while you're ahead. If you want to know or "air" information about me and my wife, you obviously need to speak with us to get your facts straight, because you are way off base.

      And let me say this to everyone posting on this blog: Check your facts before posting. I know that people's emotions are running high, but the bottom line is that if you don't know the info first hand, then don't post it! And even if you do know the info first hand, then use discretion when posting. What is this, a freaking mud slinging match? Some of you people need to grow up, and yes, I mean on both sides of this!

    100. So what do Tim and Tabitha Bartz Friesen know of checking facts FIRST HAND? You just said that the actions of Pastor Sullivant have ALWAYS disgusted you. I wonder how many times you've sat in his office hearing things first hand? And yes, this is a freaking mud slinging match...that's what happens when GOD isn't in what you are doing. It's your rite and duty to all sling at Pastor Sullivant with all your FACTS. Why can't it be the rite and duty for those that don't like your personalities, sins, and doctrine to sling too? THINK before you post is a great concept.
      Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
      Ac 18:15 But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.
      1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
      Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

      HEY civil war, no one wins! At the end of the day you wounded yourself.
      Laura, face it, you took your family matters too far.
      Others face it, Pastor Sullivant is not your concern as much as you feel you have a cause. Maybe half you got offended, the other half liked to sin - whatever. Your family members have a choice to go there, you have a choice not too.
      PVBC members, you have a right to be there and be happy. Don't persecute your family members who don't go to your church, then the ones that don't go to PVBC don't persecute them for going there either. All people at pvbc are not bad, all people that don't go to pvbc are not logic is wonderful.
      Be fully persuaded in your own minds and problem solved, close the blog.

      I left everything I ever knew for different beliefs once, never looked back, love my new life. Those on here, do not choose a new life or you would be living it, not in the past.

    101. A child who is allowed to be disrespectful to his parents will not have true respect for anyone.

      Billy Graham

    102. Unfortunately for you, the Baptist Church does not support Billy Graham.

    103. For all you Christians using the word 'freaking', you do realize it's slang for something else right?

    104. Just because I don't support Billy Graham does not mean I can't learn from him.

      I am a Baptist

      AKA: Anonymous February 25, 2011 8:03 AM

    105. The greatest day in your life and mine is when we take total responsibility for our attitudes. That's the day we truly grow up.
      John C. Maxwell

    106. A person can mature and move on from deep pain. Pastor Sullivant actually helped me with that. Although many of you will not believe that and will tell me I'm only lying because Pastor is only out for himself and money. It is possible to recover and move on. It is possible for Pastor Sullivant to care about people and help them. I'm not saying it's easy to recover but it can be done. I still think people need to find a better way to deal with their pain than saying horrible and negative stuff ons a blog about the one that hurt them. But, all to freedom speech. Just make sure your speech is actual truth and not some incident filtered though a screen of emotion.

      And yes, I'm adding to this nonsense. ;{

    107. Certain I am, that Christian Religion does no where allow Rebellion.
      Mary Astell

    108. THINK:
      T - is it true?
      H - is it helpful?
      I - is it inspiring?
      N - is it necessary?
      K - is kind?

    109. I always believed in God and Christ, but I was in rebellion - trying to make my relationship with God fit into my life instead of making my life fit in with him. I was stubborn.

      Scott Stapp

    110. Real rebels are rarely anything but second rate outside their rebellion; the drain of time and temper is ruinous to any other accomplishment.

      James Gould Cozzens

    111. The pattern of the prodigal is: rebellion, ruin, repentance, reconciliation, restoration.
      Edwin Louis Cole

    112. Evil is always devising more corrosive misery through man's restless need to exact revenge out of his hate.

      Ralph Steadman

    113. Would I be correct in assuming that most of you on here who are against Laura would like to see her come to ruin? What would please you? Death? Illness? Poverty? Other than leaving after she was legally permitted to do so, telling her side of the story and writing this blog what has she done? What is she currently doing that puts her in rebellion? Raising her kids? Cooking dinner? Doing laundry? God have mercy.

    114. Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.
      Mark Twain

    115. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
      George Orwell

    116. To: Anonymous feb 24 8:41pm

      I've been to MANY missions conferences. I've heard all the messages, and they're ALL the same...

      "Give til it hurts."

      "Try to raise your Faith Promise a little more each year."

      "Please get those Faith Promise cards in and be faithful to God in your giving."

      "If you sow sparingly, you'll reap sparingly."


      Don't get me wrong, I believe in giving to the Lord as He has prospered us as well as special offerings. But, I don't appreciate being made to feel like God will with hold his blessings from me if I don't bleed my bank account dry and give it all to the church. You may say that is just conviction talking, but it's really just a guilt/manipulation tactic preachers use to attack all the bleeding hearts and the emotions of the people in their congregation.

      And, quite honestly, I'm not so sure that "Faith Promise giving" is even all that biblical.

    117. In Your Face,

      you should study your Bible and see if it's biblical or not.

    118. Anonymous February 25, 2011 12:15 PM

      No one is against Laura. The are against what she is trying to accomplish through this blog.
      By trying to "dethrone" her dad she is making it very hard to see that she's a Christian,all she is doing is trying to get revenge on her dad.
      If that being a loving Christ like example then I don't want anything to do with her kind of Christianity.

      God himself turned his back on Christ when He bore our sins. I think that is shunning.

      Christ asked that it not be laid to their account, that's LOVE

      but we all have to ask for forgiveness to be saved.(restored)

    119. This is the day
      That the lord has made
      We will rejoice
      And be glad in it

      This is the day that the lord has made
      We will rejoice and be glad in it…

    120. To anybody that thinks this blog is useless or only doing damage shut off your computer, blackberry or whatever your using, go read Acts 5:38+39 and have faith in the word of God. To the people who have been helped/strengthened and encouraged, read that same passage and God bless you as you strive to know your God, and better our community. thanx.

      -golf addict-

    121. Voice in the WildernessFebruary 25, 2011 at 6:06 PM

      Some of these posts remind me of a parable. As the parable goes, there was a certain preacher (we'll call him "Miguel" for sake of the story) who had a certain son (we'll call him "Mateo" for sake of the story) who was in love with a certain girl. But there was a minor problem: She was engaged to another man. Poor Mateo cried to his father about how badly he wanted that girl for his wife.

      Now the girl and her parents worshiped the ground preacher Miguel walked on, but certainly that has nothing to do with our parable.

      Miguel and Mateo rent their cloaks and sat in sackcloth and ashes as they entreated the Lord both day and night with ceaseless weeping, and they found favor in the eyes of the Lord. The Lord removed the scales which had blinded the poor girl, and she promptly dumped her fiance, allowed a time to pass in order to make things look respectable, and hooked up with Mateo. Thus the Lord rewarded the faithfulness of his humble servants.

    122. All our murmurings are so many arrows shot at God Himself, and they will return upon our own hearts; they reach not Him, but they will hit us; they hurt not Him, but they will wound us; therefore it is better to be mute than to murmur; it is dangerous to provoke a consuming fire.

    123. Voice in the Wilderness = obviously coo-coo

      And to reply to the person who said that Laura was trying to "dethrone" her Dad... I think it's funny that you admit that he's on a throne.

      PMS has a pulpit and has said untrue things about Laura.

      This blog is Laura's pulpit. Sounds fair to me. It's about time.

    124. As long as your sin breaks your heart, as long as your disobedience makes you lie awake nights and wet your pillow in tears there is hope for you. But when you become contented with your wickedness, when you come to believe that it is the best possible for you, then you are in danger indeed

    125. The tragedy of life and of the world is not that men do not know God; the tragedy is that, knowing Him, they still insist on going their own way.

    126. The church members have a rite to fire their preacher. They like their preacher, what's it to you? Go help yours some way some how.

    127. Though it may seem a completely unloving thing to put someone out of the fellowship of the church, Jesus commanded us to do this when someone refuses to repent of his or her sin... In reality, since Jesus commanded it, it would be unloving not to do it.

    128. There is not one person who has contributed to this blog that Jesus would shun. Not for one second. He died for you, remember?

      Funny thing is, people commenting here are currently shunning each other.

      BEST part is, since we're saved and on our way to heaven, we're going to be spending eternity together. Non-shunned.
      There will be no baptist clique corner in heaven for the "Holier than thou" so just get over yourself down on earth.

      BTW, you bickering back and forth is what makes Christianity look so bad. Congratulations. You've put a big smile on Satan's face.

    129. To anonymous feb25 8:40pm

      ...And what if it's the preacher that needs to be put out of the fellowship? Is it still loving to speak such things?

      How well do you really know your preacher???

      How do you know what so many of us are saying isn't true??? Have u ever thought to ask them???

      Or do you swallow everything you hear from him hook, line, and sinker???

      Why do you trust this "accepted wisdom" and never question it?
      -It's not like he's God. Or maybe he is to you?

      I truly hope you'll ask yourself these questions. It's been said before and I'll say it again. ONE man can't always be right against SO MANY with similar stories of mistreatment by that same man.

      Please, use your brain, and just think about it...And, I mean that with all due respect.

    130. This article explains things:

      It's an interesting read. I'm not accusing anyone of beeing legalistic, or a Pharisee, although it does sound like some people I know.

      As Christians (Baptists, Mennonites, Non-denominationalists...) we need to be careful not to exude these attitudes.

      Referring to the article above, notice the marks of a Pharisee:

      1) All Pharisees act as if they essentially have a monopoly on God's word, the knowledge of God's will, sound doctrine, and truth.

      2) Pharisees are often "hyper-seperationists" in their attitude toward others.

      3) Pharisees smugly denounce and ridicule believers who do not believe exactly as they do or belong to their "church;" they harbor a superior, condescending attitude toward others (John 9:34).

      4) Pharisees have an outward show of "humility" and "consecration" while inwardly they are proud and self-righteous.

      5) Pharisees desire the praise of men; they desire to be honored among themselves and held in high esteem by the public.

      6) Pharisees teach their man-made traditions as God's eternal laws.

      7) Pharisees seek to live off the charity of others, and believe it is the duty of others to support them.

      8) Pharisees idolize certain leaders of their group.

      9) Pharisees "say and do not" or don't "practice what they preach."

      10) Pharisees restrain others from having or seeking true godliness.

      11) Pharisees refuse to even consider any doctrine or biblical reasoning that doesn't conform to their position despite all indications to the contrary.

      12) Pharisees act as if they are "favored" by God" and are allowed more liberties than the "average Christian."


    132. FYI, in many cases it is one man, Michael Sullivant, who decides if someone is truly repentant or not. He is judging another persons "rightness" with the Lord. Last time I checked, a persons relationship with the Lord is between the Lord and themselves.
      Seriously, if you have not experienced this, you couldn`t possibly understand it. And I'm pretty sure that people appearing "anti" baptist never thought they'd experience it either.
      Hopefully you don`t become a liability in the "church with a heart for people......and God"

    133. Funny how 1) so many people post remarks anonymously ... if you have something to say, say it and put your name to it. Personally I wouldn't post anything that was anonymous, however, perhaps some peole write anonymously in fear of repercussions... which speaks volumes - many people live - write in fear... 2)That there are stipulations to Laura's return to the family and I suppose subsequently to God's family - is in and of itself against God's nature of loving us all UNCONDITIONALLY, no strings attached. Do you want to be FREE form all the legalism that binds... check out want to hear the true gospel of Jesus preached ?? check out Living Truth on Vision and other channels or go to I pray you will find freedom to live in the love life and truth who is ALONE found in Jesus, not in some man or his organization or list of laws rules and regulations. Laura, may you find healing, LIFE, joy and peace in Jesus and in your life

    134. Amen to the above post by David Boyes! Laura, I commend you for being so brave & courageous and stepping out to share the truth! I pray that your blog would reach those who are bound and free them to live their lives as God intended! God Bless you and your family richly!

    135. David, I'd love to leave my name but that's not possible. It's very hard to leave there on good terms because they truly believe that anyone who attends there and leaves is not right with God 'cause they are "the most scriptural" church around and you won't be in God's true will anywhere else within driving distance. They can't deny this. If I had a dollar for every time I heard members and leadership say, "If there was a better church, I'd be going there.", I'd be rich. If you still have family or friends there after you've left you're at risk of losing complete fellowship with them. Another reason people don't leave their names is because the situation or story may involve others or the details are too sensitive to be mentioned on here. Some people are fighters and want the world to see what happened to them and why, the next person just wants to forget and get on with their life. It's not as easy as just leaving your name. But if you've never been a member there or had a bad experience I can understand why you'd like to see names attached to comments.

    136. there is a blog, a forum for people who have experienced spiritual abuse, to tell their stories and have the truth be out there, for their own healing and to help warn others of the danger.

    137. I don't understand how everyone that hates Mike Sullivant will judge him and say that He is judgmental, hate him for standing for the truth yet they say they are the only ones that have the truth. These same people act as though their sin and rebellion are somehow to be forgiven without repentance.

      Should we not hold these same people accountable by the same standard that they judge the preacher of the gospel?

      we say that God is a God of love but we hate our brother in Christ. Is this the Love that Christ teaches?

      I think many are serving the god of self.
      1. We are angry when an authority give us council that is not to our liking.(we call Him a Dictator)
      2. we then try to cut the man of God down so that we look better and more "right" then he is.
      3. then we try to find others that will gang up on the our God given authority.(the Mob mentality)

      Now what is Going to change?

      If the church was built on a man then it will die. If it was built by God then the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

    138. Finally a place that people can tell their side of the story. At PVBC you aren't given that opportunity. Mike is afraid that the truth will actually be told. Treat the members of your church like mushrooms eh Mike! Well mushrooms end up rotting and they can get pretty stinky. I think your attempt at laughing this whole thing off is gonna come back to hurt you. You better start damage control.

    139. Look at how you rebels love to here the gossip and slander.

      I'm glad I don't serve Your god.(the god of hate)

    140. Rebecca "Elias" HarderFebruary 27, 2011 at 12:48 AM

      I'm just speaking for myself here, I do not hate Mike. He has hurt me, my family & friends but I forgive and I continue to do that everyday, the hurt does not stop or go away.

      I feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for the people being deceived by him, I hope people share their stories for the reason of healing and helping others.

      I pray for Mike to see the errors of his way, I pray he reconciles with Laura, I do not wish him harm, I hope to see him as God sees him, someone he died for.

    141. What is the scriptural way for reconsiliation
      after someone rebels against their authority?

      Show me from the Bible.


    142. Everyone says that He HURT them.

      If i got mad every time my feelings got hurt i'd be a Basket case like most of you.

      GROW UP.

    143. NO ONE has the authority to control a person's personal relationship with God, to become a "priest/pope" in Christianity.

      NO ONE has the authority biblically and legally to control their 18 year old daughter. Jesus was 12 when he told his parents he must do his Fathers will.

      NO ONE has the authority to spiritually abuse their congregation.

      So tell me, whose legitimate authority was Laura rebelling against?

      We are only to follow those who are following Christ, Mike's blatant disregard for biblical teaching (illustrated in Laura's story as well as many others) shows only his humanity and need for repentance himself.

    144. Wow how time flies! just looked at the calender and my proof of truth spoken on this blog is now, 3 weeks and counting since it was promised that it would be presented. im still hoping that this person will step up and either say they lied or actually send me the proof, after all this blog was started in the pursuit of the truth. please provide what im asking for as always my email is and my cell is 362-2907

    145. So, if Jesus came to Winkler and wanted to come to the baptist church, would he be allowed in with his bloody hands and torn rags? Just asking... I can honestly say that the church I attend would allow him in. Can you say the same? Be honest here.

    146. That's a great question 10:59am. The answer to that question is, He would be welcomed in the door, but He would monitored closely. He would have ushers seated on either side, and could take in a service and not even realize what was happening around Him. However, if He decided He wanted to preach, teach a class, usher, or play an instrument He would have to measure up to the unrealistic outward appearance standards first. He would be given guidelines or a handbook written by the church. If Him (and his family if He had one) refused to cut their hair a certain way, or wear the exact clothing requirements He would not be allowed to serve and those around Him would be advised to stay away 'til he "got right". This is fact.

    147. To anonymous, I hear you and respect you and may God give you courage and freedom and peace to do what you must to find Life in Jesus... not just a promise of going to heaven when you die, but LIFE in Jesus for today and tomorrow, in this world where the rubber meets the road. Being right with God is between you and Him. This has affected my family tho I have never stepped into that building. The church is not a building or a person or a program... it is an individual in a living relationship with Jesus, the Head of the church... The Holy Spirit will guide you into ALL Truth ... People are finding that rules and regulations and rituals, wearing jean skirts and black suits and going to church 3 times a week and twice on Sunday means squat .... I know people who have lost jobs because they weren't from that organization... many people have been affected negatively in the everday work world by people from that organization.....I leave Matt 10:29 - 42 for your consideration, and online go to Bible Gateway and check out a variety of translations - oops, I've hit another nerve I am sure.... but, may the Spirit control you and move you if necessary or use you where you are to His honor and glory

    148. Sometimes more is said by what is read between the lines. Throughout all the comments I've seen how church members refer to Mr. Sullivant. They've talked about him being "dethroned". (Which would make him king.) They talk about his ministry. 10:10pm refers to him as "He" in mid sentence. Unfortunately they don't even see what's happening. There's been a lot of venom spewed from these comments, but just as much has come from the ones who claim to be the most holy. They should thank Laura for giving them a outlet to show their true colors.

    149. Anonymous 11:43

      I'm so glad that Wikipedia takes the place of the Bible. I asked for a Biblical answer not man's opinion. Please give me an answer from the Bible.

    150. Anon. 12:10pm.

      Are you really glad wiki takes the place of the Bible?

      "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." KJV

      Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

    151. OK

      Give me a biblical answer to my question.

      "What is the scriptural way for reconciliation
      after someone rebels against their authority?"

      Is that clear enough for anyone.

    152. There's alot of Biblical truth coming from the pen of David L. Boyes. Go back and reread his comments and you will receive answers from the Bible. What else are you looking for?

    153. Can anyone show me the verse that says at 18 we don't have to obey our parents.

    154. dont be silly 12:41 - of course there isn't such a verse, but there is one that says ...
      Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord. Amp Version of Eph 6:4 and by 18 it is approaching the time that one is ready to leave the nest, to become an adult, to be a productive individual in society,a person having a relationship that is personal with their Heavenly Father, their own relationship, not one that is dictated by a parent or even a preacher,and yes... hopefully secure in the love of their parents but more so in the love of their Heavenly Father and... the verses previous in Eph 6 speak of honouring your parents, and you can do that as an adult and still respectfully disagree on issues if you have a good relationship with your parents where you are not afraid to talk out issues for fear of repercussions. I believe you can obey your parents for the rest of your life, and ... subsequently stunt your growth as a person, stay locked in as an 18 yr old for the rest of your life... I have seen people like that. They still live with and under the authority of mom and or dad ... and as 40 plus yr olds still act like 18 yr olds or younger... they have stunted their emotional growth.Again God desires that you have a PERSONAL relationship with His Son Jesus through His Holy Spirit, that you GROW in the Grace and Knowledge of HIM

    155. Can you show me a verse that says you do?

      The bible says to follow the laws made by man as long as they dont contradict God's law. An age of independence and direct accountability to God does not contradict the bible.

    156. so then how is reconciliation made?

      church discipline is in the Bible

      so is Biblical separation.

      what do we do with those parts of the Bible? Are they less important.

    157. note Matthew 23, and in particular verse 11
      and for a change... if you dare ... read this passage in the Amplified Bible or .... even the Message... if you dare ... may God grant us all the grace to be servants whther we are "pastors" or janitors or parents or ... and for further reading check out Rejecting Religion - Embracing Grace by Greg Albrecht

    158. What did she do that was worth church discipline? Was any of it done biblically? Was she even willingly a part of the church anymore? Was she a part of a different church at the time? When one escapes physical & spiritual abuse (he's admitted over the pulpit of spanking her when she was 18) its "rebellion" but what is his disobedience to God's word? Is he not in rebellion against God? Mike is judge, jury & executioner there, who is anyone to stand up to him? Anyone who tries to even question him, quickly leaves & is lied about.

    159. Honesty, are you recommending that people read from a "bible" that was translated not from the Textus Receptus, but from two 4th century Bibles. One was the the Sinaiticus, which was found in a trash heap in a monastery and has clerical errors, including crossed out words.
      The other was the Vaticanus which was found in the libraries under the Vatican and was missing pages. All of that aside, how about the fact that the Amplified version does not support that Jesus was God. Philippians 2:6 Amplified version "Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[b]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [d]or retained,". Do you still think they should go and search out that "Bible"?

    160. It's really no different than searching out commentaries or taking one group's opinion above another's.

    161. People do realize that King James was the king of England, not a king in the Bible, right? This version was put into print when King James was satisfied with the translation. Does this make the KJV more accurate than others? I do not understand why it is so important to read only a Bible that contains vernacular that has not been used in many years. How does this help you to understand God's word?

    162. I don't think this is the place for bible translation discussion, the fact is KJV does not always say the same thing as other versions, to use other versions as commentaries is fine but to think that we have to "guess" what God has written for us is not.

      KJV is beautiful and perfectly translated/written, having a strongs concordance and websters 1828 dictionary is very useful if you do not understand what a word means, e-sword is a great tool for bible studies because you can have all those resources with just a click :)

      Fact: Using the KJV doesn't make your OPINION right, many misuse as abuse the KJV to further their own agenda.

      If you want to debate versions there are other forums for that...

    163. Just wondering???? This blog started out as Laura telling here story and it makes me wonder if any of you really care about her story or the hurt she has and may cont. to go through, or is this just another place to all just share or fight over the bible. I am not a church goer nor does reading all these comments between all these " christians" in winkler make a person wish to go. Just a thought for some of you who choose to fight and play childish games between one another... what example are you really setting for someone who does not know Jesus.

    164. Oh great, the never-ending version debate. These discussions are about as intelligent as two kids who own different versions of Little Red Riding Hood arguing about whether she gets eaten at the end or is saved by a hunter. Each is convinced their version of the facts is correct, both of them never bother to question whether either story has any basis in fact, or is simply the fabrication of man.

    165. I didn't want to start a version debate, I just wanted to point out that a good portion of the PVBC members do not know why they "believe" what they do. You would be surprised how many do not. They just do and believe what they are told is right by the "all knowing and right" Mike Sullivant.

    166. I have witnessed the before, during, and after of friends and family members attending the pvbc. I thought that the "during" part was bad, because they totally stopped seeing us, apparently because we weren't in the pvbc "bubble". But, the "after" part is far worse. Having all their dirty laundry aired (from before they were christians), and instructing other members turn their backs on them too, is just horrible! Whatever kind of a church that does that, is not one that I would want to ever be a part of.

    167. I am still waiting for the answer to my question.

      "What is the scriptural way for reconciliation
      after someone rebels against their authority?"

      David Boyes, I checked out Matthew 23 in both the KJV and the AMP, Jesus was talking to the unbelieving Jews of his day. In verse 34 it goes on to say that these same religious and lost pharisees would kill the preachers that Christ would send to them.

      Many people will try to say that they were bullied by a church or pastor, yet they always have the ability to leave a church and find one that they agree with.

      If there is someone that can prove from the Bible that Michael Sullivant is wrong in his doctrine and has proof then they should tell it.
      But if not then it becomes your opinion and you become like the "Accuser of the Brethren".

      We all should be open to the TRUTH of the Scriptures not the TRUTH of our Opinion.

    168. Quote from Streams of Civilization Vol. 2, Copyright 1995 by Christian Liberty Press.
      Re: the King James (Authorized) Version of the Bible, published in 1611.
      “That the name of this particular Stuart king should be associated with the grandest and most sacred work of English literature is what one biographer calls “a blasphemous joke.” James was a wicked monarch whose life was full of dark plots and murderous intrigue. He persecuted the devout Puritans with a vengeance. He created censorious “High Commissions” while himself indulging in drunkenness and homosexuality. Yet the translation of the Bible which he commissioned is dedicated “to the most high and mighty prince James by the grace of God King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith.”

    169. Here is some truth of scripture for Daniel:

      Matthew 22:36-40
      36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
      38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
      39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
      40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

    170. What about I Corinthians 5 & Matthew 18

      They talk about church discipline.

      It is an act of love to stay pure from sin.


      Is this a church that holds to this unloving?

    172. To those looking for Biblical information about church discipline.

      Matthew 18:15-17 KJV "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
      Remember how Christ treated the heathens and publicans - he fellowshipped with them more than with the religious people.

      I Cor. 5:11-13 KJV "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
      The sin needs to be a real sin and not a pet peeve or personality difference.

      2 Thess. 3:14-15 KJV "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."
      The verses in the chapter before these verses have to do with a person who doesn't want to work for what he eats and busybodies. So needs to be taken in contexted.

      2 Tim 2:24-26 KJV "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentace to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

      Gal. 6:1 KJV "Brethern, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

      1 Thess. 5:14-15 KJV "Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men."

      John 13:34-35 KJV "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

      If you are looking for a more indepth study, check out (It has a lot more verses.)

      I believe that church discipline has its place. I also think that it can be abused. In the church I attend, there has been only one case of public church discipline in the nine years I have attended. In the church I attended while younger, there was no more that two in fifteen years. I think too many cases of church discipline are a cause for concern for those in the area and those attending. And reading the comments it seems there are much more then one or two in a ten-fifteen year time span. Remember that restoring a person to Christ does not mean to make that person conform to a church's ideals but to Christ's. There can be a very big difference between the two.

    173. How are we to treat the heathens? (Matt 18:17) Shun them?

      Read 1 Cor. 5, then read it again, and again... 5:11 - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      Now, was Laura biblically church disciplined? according to both of those bible chapters? Take in account the reasons the bible gives and the actions the bible gives...

      Don't misuse the bible, why? because its way to easy proving you wrong.

      Something also to think of, more then 2 or 3 witnesses have said Mike is a railer (abusive) & extortioner.

    174. There is a difference between a rebuke and a railing.

      If someone is in rebellion they should be rebuked.

      Many of the people that wrote on this blog stated that they were "abused" by a person that told them that they were wrong according to the scriptures. Or told them that the doctrine they were spreading was wrong according to the scriptures.

      I'm sure that the in 22 years of teaching the Bible as a full time occupation, that a preacher would have many that will try to stand against him. The Word Of God is a Sword.

      Why is it that only one child of this preacher stands against him? Does he not have eight children?

      Abuse is a pattern that dose not stop with one child. reading some of her brothers post they don't think that she or they were abused. Evidently many that have left the PVBC have never learned to obey their earthly authority.

      A pastor that lets the church follow every wind of doctrine should not be a pastor. But the Pastor that earnestly contends for the faith is a wise under shepherd.

      We are not wise to accuse someone of abuse if they stand against our sin and areas of doctrinal compromise.

    175. I wander which one of you thinks that they can preach the Word of God for 23 year to 300 to 500 people and not offend someone.


    177. Hi David, it's me anon again. Notice the above comment, "Evidently many that have left the PVBC have never learned to obey their earthly authority."

      That's what I was talking about.

      I pray this person will never have to go through what some of us have.

    178. Just some questions:

      How many people have been excommunicated from this church?
      Who is the accuser? One person or multiple people?
      How many have been restored to Christ? to the church?
      Is the sin a public one? Is there any record of the sin not just a he said/she said?
      Is there a time of prayer/fasting followed to make sure that all involved in the discipline are seeking God's will?
      What is the procedure in place to rebuke the pastor if needed?
      What do people in the community (not in the church) have to say about the church? Is it mainly negative or positive?
      Can your pastor take rebuke?
      (Do not assume that the pastor will not sin. It places too large a burden on the pastor. The pastor is a human and needs to be treated as such. Pastors fall, have affairs, embezzle money, have problems with pride, etc.)
      How long do the deacons/elders serve at one time? and how often can they run for deaconship/eldership?
      The charge of rebellion is never mentioned in the New Testament as a reason to stop fellowship with someone.
      Always remember that the unsaved watch the Christians constantly. They see so much more than we at times would like them too. If there is a true need to church discipline someone, everyone involved needs to make sure that everyone involved and all those watching are being pointed to Christ, His love, and His forgiveness. If that is not the case, then the discipline has failed before it is even started.

    179. The only thing that I see that this pastor has done is not sided with liberal Christian.

      A pastors duty is stand Strong in the faith, no matter what anyone thinks of him.

      So far not one person has given any biblical reason why their "hurt" was not justified. as many have said that they had to go against their parents in order to live the was they wanted.

      I have never heard of a place in scripture that tells a teen to go against their authority.

      If you have sin in your life then the Lord will not hear you. this tells me that if I rebel against authority then the LORD won't hear my prayer. So people that are saying that they have never been closer to God then they are right now, and never repented of their sin of rebellion are deceiving themselves. 1 John 2:9

    180. I wonder how many of these comments are Mike Sr himself?

    181. Why is it that only one child of this preacher stands against him? Does he not have eight children?

      Abuse is a pattern that dose not stop with one child. reading some of her brothers post they don't think that she or they were abused.

      Speaking from my own personal experience in an abusive home, I didn't even know we were being abused until after I left and someone pointed it out to me. I knew there was something wrong, but wasn't aware of exactly what, when in fact it was emotional, psychological, spiritual, and financial abuse to children, teens, and adults. My siblings are as far as I know, unaware they are being abused, because they are told they aren't by my dad, who uses actual brainwashing techniques (knowingly or unknowingly) to condition them to respond as he wishes. This is not normal training. This is brainwashing.

      So that's one perspective. Besides that, everyone has a different perspective on what happens, and everyone has a different way of reacting. While I may be damaged from emotional abuse, perhaps someone else can handle emotional abuse better, but is weak against physical.

      Evidently many that have left the PVBC have never learned to obey their earthly authority.

      No one is commanded "thou shalt stay with thy pastor no matter what". That's the beauty: if they don't like a church, they can leave.

      It really bothers me when people accuse other people of never learning to obey their "earthly authority", especially when those "authorities" have no real power over them (or shouldn't, at least). I have no clue what the situation at this church is, these are just my observations.

      And yes, I find that if anyone disagrees with the "man in charge", he is considered rebellious no matter what. I was accused of rebellion as well because I decided to move away from my parents' home.

      Everyone has a choice. No one is forced to stay anywhere. Everyone is also entitled to their opinion of what happened, and also entitled to share their story. If something hurtful is going on, even if it is to one person, it shouldn't be brushed off, it should be looked into. Physical child abuse, even if it only happens to one child, is still a serious offense and treated as such. If something hurts someone, it is a serious matter. Otherwise, you undermine the person's thoughts, feelings, rights, and personhood.

      Do I think everyone is entitled to say what they wish? Yes. Do I think confusing debate is necessary? Probably not.

      Anyway...return to your reguarly scheduled anonymous debate. Kudos to the people who use their names/identification btw.

    182. this blog is evil surmising

    183. Wow, I've read through all these comments and I'm just blown away by the judgmentality of it all! I'm not a Baptist, and have no intention of becoming one, quite happy being Mennonite thank you very much. Seeing as I've got the attention of all these Baptists - I have one question for you all, and hopefully somebody can answer it for me. What's the deal with all of the Baptist women/girls in town wearing long denim skirts? I've always wondered this? Is this a "church rule" that's been dictated by the Leader?

    184. Or does the God-given creativity for variety and beauty just fly out of a woman's brain when she becomes a Baptist? (I've been wondering the same as the 8:21 comment . . . someone please help us understand).

    185. Love the way she looksMarch 16, 2011 at 11:20 PM

      My wife wears long and short denim and non denim skirts. Never has there been a time that anyone has been told to wear "denim" skirts.

      Modesty and the distinction of the sexes are the only thins taught on the matter.

      I think my wife look awesome.;) and her body is for me to look at only

      I been a member for more then 20 years.

    186. I'm the individual who asked the question about the denim skirts, I actually have another "Baptist question". I've "heard" alot about women in this church are "made" to have babies until they are no longer physically able to. True? I know of a few couples who started attending PVBC after they were done having babies and were told to "undo" whatever "damage" they had done to their bodies and get making babies again!
      If this is true, which it must be, because we've heard of a few couples who were made to do this, I would then view this church as being somewhat Cultish. I've talked to Many, many people throughout this community and the only thing I ever hear is negativity about this dictatored church.
      One more thing. I drive by this church everyday, and noticed what your sign said this week. It reads something to the effect "We are too Blessed to be Depressed." Well, this is true in one respect - we truely have nothing to complain about as a Nation. However, for somebody who truely suffers from this horrible disease, true Depression is a chemical imbalance of the brain which requires medical interventions to fix. Perhaps do some research before you post things of that nature.

    187. A Modern Day ZealotApril 20, 2011 at 4:04 PM

      I Know there has been a lot of hurt,and nasty blogs posted on the web on a few sites.Things could be resolved but in order for them to happen some people will need an overwhelming conviction in their lives.Some of us recognize our Identity and authority In Christ.Others are immature and lacking in this area,(not meant to degrade anyone)so things are posted out of ignorance.Fact is this also happened in the Bible and the immature in Christ got offended by it.We are not here to Boast about who is better or more mature.We are to lift and encourage each other,in our faith.Problem is When a man is exalted we run into problems.God should be getting all the Glory not a man.Nor have a man boasting about (see what I did or have done).Problems can't be fixed when denial is present.Each Person has there own Faults just as I do.Thank God for Grace and for his patience with us,we were so undeserving but now we are his Chosen ones.Let us Focus on Our Savior,and lay aside the things that we don't all agree upon,for in due time they will be dealt with.Let us enjoy the marvelous things that God has in store for us.It's hard to "Forgive" (I know all to well)but It is the only way to grow past this point in life and be Christlike.When does the Healing take place for you my Friend ?

    188. Modern Day Zealot you seem to be contriditing yourself. On Vic & Melanie's post you said:
      "By "Identity" I am not just talking about being saved or being a believer" where as here you write: "Some of us recognize our Identity and authority In Christ"

      So which is it? Are you talking about our identity in Christ or not? It seems your are just trying to stir up confusion.

    189. A Modern Day ZealotApril 20, 2011 at 7:22 PM

      There are those of us that "know" what our "Identity In Christ" is really about.There are those that are saved but don't walk in the knowledge of it.They seem to be spiritual but are like the Pharisees,and they question it.And We having and knowing just what our Identity pertains to, get very annoyed by ones claiming to know it and have no idea or clue what it is. Clear and simple those who have it know exactly what I'm talking about.Others wish they had it .

    190. Modern Day 5:22, the Bible speaks against boasting, that is why we are saved by grace, not by works so that we can't boast. Yet hear you are, boasting that your identity in Christ is somehow better than anothers. The Bible speaks for humility. Perhaps you need to be more humble in the way you speak and not put yourself above others.

    191. A Modern Day ZealotApril 20, 2011 at 8:29 PM

      Are you judging me ? It's not a matter of boasting it's a matter of how you see yourself in God's eyes is all.Is that wrong ? some pastors will never teach for us to look at ourselves through Gods eyes they would rather place condemnation and unworthiness into peoples hearts ! hell fire and brimstone = Bondage !

    192. A Modern Day ZealotApril 21, 2011 at 1:16 PM

      By "others" I was pertaining to people likened as to the pharisees.So I do believe that my comment was just.Sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say,not my intentions at all.